Do Lead Magnets Work?

00:00.00

Preston Lee

Hello and welcome back to another episode of freelance to founder. My name is Preston Lee with Millo.co and usually joining me on the air is my friend Clay Mosley from gettripify.com but Clay is unavailable Today. He had some family matters. He’s attending to and. The same day that he had some family issues come up. He’s moving his entire company to new offices which look pretty sweet I have to admit so we are missing Clay this week but he will be back next week on the next episode I’m sure many of you know Clay lives in Austin. Texas and I am joined now today by our guest who also lives in Austin Texas Garrett hi Garrett so well. Thank you so much for taking time to join us on the show today I really appreciate it. Man.

 

00:38.79

Garrett Clawson

Hey President How’s it going man.

 

00:45.45

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, no I’m excited to to talk a little more about the business and hear your thoughts on where we go from here.

 

00:52.29

Preston Lee

That’s great I I have to humble brag just a little bit. Um because I love what you told me before we hit record which is you found the show a couple months ago and you just been like binge listening to it and I love to hear that um I love to hear that the show is helping people that people enjoy listening to it. They don’t get too tired of. Clay and I getting long winded or going off on our soap boxes are long tangents. But um, so thank you for listening and then double. Thank you for joining on a call. We. Love it when when you listen, but we really really love it when you join us. We can’t do the show without people like you Garrett. So thanks so much for being here.

 

01:26.29

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, no that the rambles are the best part man I love hearing um that little nuggets that come from that.

 

01:29.16

Preston Lee

Yeah, good good deal all right? Well let’s dive into your business. A little bit tell me and the listeners a little bit about what you’re working on what your business is how long you’ve been in business tell us about your clients just kind of open up and and tell us what you’ve got going on.

 

01:42.49

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, no great question. So I am I’m from Louisiana originally study political science and sociology at Lsu and Baton Rouge and came to Austin Texas to get my masters in public administration and really specialized and honed in on nonprofit management and strategy. And went into the nonprofit space right? after that and did project management grant management some strategic planning and and really loved that and getting to work with a couple of different teams and while I was in my my 9 to 5 job as a project manager and a nonprofit I was doing grant consulting on the side and so. Um, probably like a lot of the listeners I you crunched late late nights. Um you know, pull pulling extra hours and I I got to a point where I felt like it was sustainable enough to to stick my neck out there and and try to do it full time and so ah I got that from this this show as well. Just I peopled that.

 

02:24.40

Preston Lee

Yeah I.

 

02:40.71

Garrett Clawson

Weren’t sure if they were ready to make the leap and and you guys have always encouraged them to to take the leap if they if they feel like it could work and so ah so I did that in March I I stepped out and and started doing my own thing. Um, and so now I I started a company called benevolent strategies and so we exist to help mission-driven organizations.

 

02:43.90

Preston Lee

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

 

02:59.64

Garrett Clawson

Um, develop Strategy Strategic Frameworks and systems that they need to to build healthy teams build healthy organizations and and grow their community impact and a lot of nonprofits have great intentions and and they have great hearts and want to help people but a lot of the times they just don’t have that the systems the Frameworks the. Infrastructure that they need to to capture metrics. Well evaluate their programs and deliver on their mission. So That’s what we’re here to do.

 

03:21.21

Preston Lee

Oh interesting. Okay, so so like if I’m one of your clients I’m a nonprofit company I come to you because I have a problem with what like I I don’t have good data on my donors or I don’t have like what what were the problems that you’re solving for for nonprofits.

 

03:37.27

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, no great question. So I I kind of intentionally stayed away from the the development fundraising side of things that’s not where my background is and and that space is pretty saturated and so I have really I got my pmp which is my project management professional certification last year

 

03:43.31

Preston Lee

Okay.

 

03:52.40

Preston Lee

Oh okay.

 

03:55.99

Garrett Clawson

Um, which is definitely geared towards the the private space the private sector but there are so many skills and Frameworks and like designs that are are very applicable to the nonprofit space and so um, the way I’ve tried to to build my narrative. My story is is kind of the programs guy so coming in.

 

03:59.83

Preston Lee

Ah.

 

04:14.25

Preston Lee

Um, how? um.

 

04:14.82

Garrett Clawson

Um, helping them you know, develop strong budgets that reflect their priorities set their priorities. Ah really clarify and hone in on their their identity and their um yet their focus and and building healthy teams.

 

04:28.20

Preston Lee

Okay, excellent I Love that So you’re you’re actually bringing in some of these things that ah ah, a commercial or for profit company would would focus really hard on but some of these nonprofits they have limited resources. They maybe have really goodhearted people but not like these diehard capitalists right.

 

04:44.83

Garrett Clawson

Shoot.

 

04:45.98

Preston Lee

And so they and so they maybe don’t focus on some of these things that in an organization or can be critical can can make or break an organization.

 

04:54.25

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, no, no absolutely and so what we’re really passionate about is helping them build that foundation to to become more efficient to scale their impact. Um and to be more competitive and yeah, when it comes to the the funder side of things to help them be more competitive for grants and.

 

05:00.43

Preston Lee

Call.

 

05:09.58

Garrett Clawson

Um, make a more compelling case to donors.

 

05:11.18

Preston Lee

Yeah I love that Well, that’s cool and and a great way for you to have an impact as well. Um, even though your your business is for profit right? Ah is that correct. Yeah, okay yeah, awesome congratulations.

 

05:19.73

Garrett Clawson

Correct yep where yes so I just filed my LLC two weeks ago like.

 

05:27.11

Preston Lee

Yeah, so so even though you have a for-profit company. This is a great way for you to also have a positive impact in a lot of different areas. So that’s really cool how many how many clients do you work with at any given time like I know you’ve only been doing this since March so it’s sort of hard to say things like that. But. In the last I don’t know six months or so are you are you working with 2 or 3 clients at any given time 10 clients at any given time. What does it look like why.

 

05:49.20

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, no, probably 4 4 to 6 is where I I probably am at any any given time. Um, we we can dive into this a little bit more if you want but what I’ve been experimenting with is is a little bit of a lead magnet. So having kind of like ah what I call a best fit funders package. And so um, that’s just a 1 time you know seven hundred and fifty dollars package where I will that they’ll will have a call and they’ll give me kind of a profile in our organization and then I have a number of different grant directories that I subscribe to and I’ll I’ll pull for them. The 10 best fits that I think that they should pursue.

 

06:20.52

Preston Lee

Oh very cool.

 

06:23.38

Garrett Clawson

And so um, that’s that’s kind of a very quick package ah takes two or three days to do um and so those those are kind of ongoing but but yeah at any given time 4 to 6

 

06:34.55

Preston Lee

Yeah I love it. Um, so do you typically like the business that you do for them is this like you come in, you solve a bunch of problems and then you’re done or is this an ongoing like do they pay you on a recurring basis or how does how is the you know the billing look.

 

06:50.70

Garrett Clawson

No yeah, yeah, ah so I’ve been learning from you guys I’ve been thinking about what productization looks like um I I am still largely hourly at this point simply because I’m I’m still trying to discern what a good estimate is for some of these things in terms of time.

 

06:55.12

Preston Lee

Yeah.

 

07:04.86

Preston Lee

Yeah, yeah.

 

07:08.10

Garrett Clawson

Um, and so I still I’m I’m not sure if I’m you know giving them a steal for the time that they’re buying or if I’m ah, really overcharging. So once I feel like I can calibrate better How long it’ll take to do things I Really want to move towards the prioritization. Um, but ah.

 

07:20.92

Preston Lee

Yeah.

 

07:26.30

Garrett Clawson

Was your question again for us.

 

07:28.41

Preston Lee

Ah, now that’s okay, um I was just curious if if you’re mostly billing them on a recurring basis right now or is it like ah more of a project base like you come in, you do a few projects with them and you’re done or or will they be more like a few years in a relationship.

 

07:38.25

Garrett Clawson

Ah, yes.

 

07:41.96

Preston Lee

With you. You know where they’re ongoing clients.

 

07:45.38

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, no great question. So some of my clients are ongoing and so I’ve effectively come in and become their fractional grant manager or fractional project manager. Um, and so those those are kind of indefinite ongoing.

 

07:51.69

Preston Lee

Oh cool. Yeah.

 

08:01.58

Garrett Clawson

And then other ones do want do do you have like a discrete project with a clear start and end I’m working with 1 nonprofit in San Antonio right now to build a new school and so that is very much a kind of a clear start and stop. So it really depends whether we they’re they’re here for the.

 

08:14.72

Preston Lee

Um, yeah.

 

08:18.59

Garrett Clawson

The 1 time. Best fit funders package or they’re looking for for ongoing support.

 

08:19.32

Preston Lee

Okay, cool I love it man um, it sounds like you’re doing really cool work. Really interesting work. We haven’t talked to a ton of like sort of operations project manager type people and um, so I think this is fun to explore this and certainly in the nonprofit space. We. We don’t have a ton of conversations in in that area and so. I personally love the nonprofit space I I wish I did more in it. Um, so this is going to be a fun conversation I I want to talk a little bit about ah the survey that you filled out when you came on the show so longtime listeners of the show know that we have this very short questionnaire when when someone like Garrett signs up to come on the show. We want to be as helpful as possible. So we gather some information ahead of time and one of the things that we actually ask you when you fill out that questionnaire is on a scale of 1 to 10 one being a freelancer just completely working for yourself. The business relies 100% on you and 10 being a founder meaning. You can step away from the business if you need to you have systems processes probably employees or at least subcontractors in place. A team of some kind in place that would be a 10 so on a scale of 1 to 10 where are you and where do you want to be in a year and Garrett you put that currently in your in your business. Your. In terms of on the where you’re starting is at a 2 and then where you’d like to get in the next 6 or twelve months is at a 6 because could you sort of you’ve painted a picture I guess of what your business looks like now could you walk me through what what a 6 would look like to you like twelve months from now. What’s the ideal picture of your business.

 

09:50.53

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah, good question. So just like a lot of freelancers I I currently wear all the hats right? You know I do the marketing I do the sales I do the accounting the work itself and where I’d like to be in in a year is having the resources to.

 

09:58.64

Preston Lee

Yeah.

 

10:08.19

Garrett Clawson

To Outsource some of those things right? So The the accountant um bring on subcontractors maybe to do some of of the Grant services. The marketing social Media piece. Um I Love systems and so I I feel like I’ve you know, kind of honed in on some of those things and and and refine them. But. What I really want to do just because so many nonprofits initially come to me because they they want grants and and that’s what I’ve I’ve done for the longest period of time. So a lot of people know me as the grants guy right now? Um, but but where I really want to be is helping nonprofits solve ah kind of what we spoke to earlier the the framework piece thinking through.

 

10:37.24

Preston Lee

Um, my I have.

 

10:45.14

Preston Lee

Ah.

 

10:45.87

Garrett Clawson

Systems and the the infrastructure that that makes their programs possible. So ah, really what I would like to move towards is is those longer um more more intensive engagements with clients.

 

10:59.19

Preston Lee

Yeah I love that so is it is a part of that like being the fractional. Um, what did you call it fractional project project manager or something like that. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

11:09.36

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah, yeah, fractional grant manager and fractional project manager which typically looks like you know 20 hours a month of work and so again still trying to figure out how to best approach the pricing structure there. Um.

 

11:15.84

Preston Lee

Right.

 

11:22.78

Preston Lee

Yeah, yeah.

 

11:26.49

Garrett Clawson

What what? I’ve been doing thus far is is effectively saying hey you know I will give you up to 20 hours a month worth of this work I’ll bill you for what I do and so if I if there’s not 20 hours worth of work I only believe for what I do if I go over twenty I’ll make sure to clear it with you first? Um, and so yes, that that is one of.

 

11:30.52

Preston Lee

Stuff.

 

11:45.71

Garrett Clawson

Of the types of relationships that I have with clients.

 

11:46.39

Preston Lee

Got it cool but I guess I guess part of the question is like in that in that perfect world scenario a year from now. Are you hoping that all of your client relationships look like that are you hoping that it’s a little um ah yeah, like that’s really the question.

 

11:58.56

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah, no absolutely.

 

12:01.12

Preston Lee

That that’s the ideal like that that scenario is the ideal or or is there something else. That’s even better for you.

 

12:07.58

Garrett Clawson

No I think you’re exactly right? So ah, there is a framework. It’s kind of like Eos the entrepreneur operating system. But but for nonprofits or missiond driven organizations and it’s called the 6 levers framework and so you you can.

 

12:16.91

Preston Lee

Okay.

 

12:21.53

Garrett Clawson

Take ah you know and a a boot camp effectively with with the organization that has developed that framework. You can become kind of a certified consultant with them and so ah through that you um, have the materials to kind of come in help a nonprofit develop what they call an organizational operating system and so you’re thinking through.

 

12:28.51

Preston Lee

I’ll call.

 

12:40.29

Garrett Clawson

Um, an identity or think their identity focus cohe team cohesion leadership in the organization momentum ah like the rhythms and cadences of different things that they do and ah that is ah a kind of a discrete project right? So it has a start and stop date. It’s typically about four months long and after that. Ah.

 

12:45.93

Preston Lee

Yeah, yeah.

 

12:58.76

Garrett Clawson

Kind of the objective is to either turn them loose and and let them run with this new tool if they have or to effectively come on as an ongoing ah strategist of sorts to help them continue to build out those levers and just find your practices.

 

13:09.50

Preston Lee

Um, yeah, almost ah, almost like a C O o or something right? like ah like ah operations. Yeah yeah, awesome I love that.

 

13:16.84

Garrett Clawson

Right? Yeah, like a FractionalC o of sorts. Yup, so that that would be the objective I love thinking a picture.

 

13:22.36

Preston Lee

So That would be the ideal and then and then so so a year from now like would you hope that that you are the FractionalCO or that you’re maybe sending teammates out to do that or you do it as almost kind of an agency model where they have access to 3 or 4 people on a fractional basis or or what does that look Like. Or do you not know. It’s okay to not know too.

 

13:41.56

Garrett Clawson

That’s a great question pre. Um I think now I think yeah, there’s definitely some ambiity videoity around it still um I think a year from now I would still want to be doing a lot of that. However I do think part part of.

 

13:49.33

Preston Lee

Yes, if.

 

13:55.47

Garrett Clawson

I Mean some you know those who are not as familiar with the nonprofit space aren’t probably familiar with the grants process but grants involve a lot of ah it it reaches across entire Organization. So It touches every part of programming in terms of leadership administration and so um I think that that is a great. Ah. Doorway Basically for people to to find our services and and work with me I’m using our already. It’s just for you right now for those of you listening? Um, but but I do think that is a service that I would want to continue providing as part of of the company.

 

14:21.76

Preston Lee

I.

 

14:28.47

Preston Lee

Yeah.

 

14:31.10

Garrett Clawson

And so I could see bringing people on to provide some of those ah those satellite services I Guess you could say.

 

14:35.46

Preston Lee

Cool, yeah, perfect. Well I want to address something that we’ve talked about so far already and then I want to dive into questions or roadblocks that you have but I think this is helpful for you and for for many listeners. Um, you’ve mentioned a couple times that you’re getting hung up on the pricing piece where it’s like well I don’t know you know. I’ll give you 20 hours or up to 20 hours but I’m not sure how much that should actually cost I’m not sure if I’m giving them a deal or whatever, etc, etc. And I’m trying to figure out how to product ties and and I can tell by the way you’re talking about it that you that you maybe know where I’m going with this right? but but it helps just in a specific situation to maybe clarify. So.

 

15:06.64

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah.

 

15:09.34

Preston Lee

If it were me offering this fractional Cmo or sorry fra. That’s what clayta or Clay did previously Cmo if I were offering this fractional c o or fractional grant manager or whatever it ends up, you end up calling it. Um I would just charge a flat monthly fee for that and then your hours. Don’t matter which can be scary on this on your end right? because it’s like well what if I work 40 out 40 hours this month and I only build them for 20 well don’t first of all, right? Um, you still manage your time on the backend to make sure that you’re profitable. But. But what that does is it makes it does a few things. It makes the decision really easy for the for the decision maker. So you you just say I charge you know $5000 a month and I and I give you around 20 hours a month as a fractional c o and and then. That’s really easy for them to say well if we were to hire a full-time person to do this. We’d have to pay them. You know 120000 a year or something I don’t I’m again I’m making this all up. But um, they they do those calculations even on the fly in their head and they’ll say oh that’s a pretty good deal right? And so when you’re a fractional person when you’re like.

 

16:04.53

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah.

 

16:14.96

Preston Lee

Billing yourself or or um, marketing yourself as a fractional person keep in mind they’re always comparing that to well what would a full-time person cost me and so instead of instead of saying like well how much because quite often when when organizations pay full-time employees. They pay them on a salary basis instead of an hourly basis and so that’s.

 

16:21.93

Garrett Clawson

Yeah.

 

16:34.40

Preston Lee

That’s actually all we’re doing here is is moving from an hourly to a salary in a sense. We’re saying my fractional salary is $3000 a month $5000 a month. Whatever as opposed to the full-time salary of someone in my position would be.

 

16:38.56

Garrett Clawson

Yeah.

 

16:51.70

Preston Lee

You know $12000 a month or something like that. So I think it’s just important to keep in mind you know, organizations quite often. Yes, pay by the hour but when you start to get up into more of these advanced positions. They pay by the salary and maybe you can tell me if that’s not true in in non-forprofit but at least in the in you know more um for- profit space that I’ve been in. That tends to be how that comparison goes and and that’s the comparison they make when trying to decide whether or not to hire you as opposed to you know, nickel and diming each hour that you work for them or don’t and then billing becomes much easier too because you can just set them up on an auto bill thing they put in their credit card once you bill them. You know.

 

17:23.41

Garrett Clawson

Sure.

 

17:27.69

Preston Lee

$3000 every month until you stop? Um, you don’t have to like send them this this month I did 15 hours and this month I did 17 hours and I have to call you when I go over and things like that it just it simplifies a lot of pieces. So.

 

17:41.51

Garrett Clawson

No, that that makes total sense and I think yes I think there’s a lot of value to what you’re saying and I think what what I’ve kind of run into just in my experience and something that I’m continuing to try to you know a B test in some ways is the.

 

17:53.11

Preston Lee

Yeah.

 

17:59.74

Garrett Clawson

Again I Love Nonprofit that’s spent my entire life in nonprofits. Um, but they they are in a lot of ways very money sensitive and and and understandably so but what what I’ve run into with but even making some of these larger proposals right? for like an on like ah a four month engagement where we’re.

 

18:06.43

Preston Lee

Um, yeah, yeah.

 

18:19.38

Garrett Clawson

Building a strategic plan which is several thousand dollars and so um I’ve been trying through kind of the hourly work right through that. Best fit funders package to get my foot in the door to start building a rapport with them to to start helping them understand hey this is these are other ways we can continue to work together.

 

18:36.83

Preston Lee

Um.

 

18:37.36

Garrett Clawson

Would actually make this piece the grant writing piece more effective and so how would you? how how would you recommend and I think this is applicable to the private sector as well as the the social sector is how do you I hate use the word upselling because it sounds it sounds so um, deceptive. But.

 

18:45.89

Preston Lee

Yeah.

 

18:56.16

Garrett Clawson

How do I help nonprofits understand and realize the the value in some of these these pricier opportunities.

 

19:03.88

Preston Lee

Yeah, so I think first of all, you know there’s there’s this tendency to think about sales in this really? Ah, like you said deceptive or sleazy or ah, unattractive way and I think the number one way to overcome that is to realize the value that you bring right? so. really really silly but but simple example of that you go to Chipotle you buy a burrito and the upsell is what chips and guac right? or chips in caso or whatever. Well yes, it’s expensive for some some tortilla chips and some guacamole. But. But the value. The people love it right? So people are excited to pay for that upsell and so it’s not this like and and and it’s not that big of a deal to just decline it right? So so that’s I know it’s a silly example but upsells work the same way when you’re pitching to a client right? If you um. If you have if you’re offering a certain amount of value but you have the ability to offer even more value then that’s what you’re selling is like I’ve I’ve helped you to a level 5 what I want to help you to is a level 8.

 

20:13.22

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah.

 

20:15.35

Preston Lee

And and if you look at it if you look at it from that point of view then you’re actually offering to do more for them and yes, that’s going to cost more money but it’s not like you’re saying give me more money and I’m going to do the same work. You’re saying I want to do I Want to add this extra value I Want to help your organization get to the next level in. This thing XYZ here’s what it costs by the way but let’s not focus on that. Let’s focus on this is the value I’m going to bring you right? and and that makes those conversations so much less awkward because it then it doesn’t feel like you’re coming to them saying like please give me more money. Feels like you’re going to them which often those upsell moments do right? It just feels like I Just don’t want to ask for more money instead. It feels like you’re going to them saying. Let’s do more together I can help you more.

 

20:57.36

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah, no, that’s I think that’s great and and that’s why I do think at least in my space that it makes sense to to have that that low hanging fruit for them right? I mean grants is is the thing that they want it’s they think of it as free money and.

 

21:13.47

Preston Lee

Um, and.

 

21:17.80

Garrett Clawson

Um, sadly that is often not the case and so ah, having those those kind of limited engagements that are that are easier for them to swallow. They don’t have to go get approval from someone else right? to to do something like that does allow the rapport building that that makes those types of of cells easier.

 

21:26.80

Preston Lee

Um, yeah, yeah I Love that giving him? Um, yeah.

 

21:36.17

Garrett Clawson

But I think you’re exactly right? It’s it’s showing them that the value um and and connecting it to their pain points right? and demonstrating why why it solves a a root issue.

 

21:45.46

Preston Lee

Yeah, absolutely and and and as you get more clients and you pay attention to like oh clients who typically have trouble getting you know as many grants as they want to receive um also have this other issue usually or they’re connected right? and so you can come in and say like.

 

22:00.92

Garrett Clawson

Yep.

 

22:02.20

Preston Lee

We’ve actually found with with most of our clients. They’re not getting grants because of this other thing that we can also help you solve and so you’re like contributing to the bigger issue which maybe is grants or maybe grants is the smaller and something else is the bigger but but it sort of all contributes to this like again we can help you at a level 3 or we can help you at a level 8

 

22:06.75

Garrett Clawson

Yeah.

 

22:19.11

Preston Lee

And of course those cost different but we’re going to help you no matter what and and there’s a place for everybody and Clay Clay talks a lot about that sort of tiered package idea and um, so yeah I think there’s definitely opportunity there where maybe 1 package is just you know basic grant assistance. But then another package is like the whole you know systems processes.

 

22:20.29

Garrett Clawson

Yep.

 

22:27.56

Garrett Clawson

That’s good. Yeah.

 

22:39.28

Preston Lee

Operations and grants of course but like it’s all sort of inclusive and then you just have different options and people pick what they want.

 

22:46.89

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, no I think that’s that is really good because then at least they’re they’re stepping into it with with like you said that that full menu of options and 1 thing that I’ve started doing that has been helpful is doing ah an organizational health assessment or a grant readiness assessment.

 

22:52.26

Preston Lee

Yeah, yeah.

 

23:02.92

Garrett Clawson

And so it’s it’s a way for for me very quickly to you know what However, they they start to work with me whether it’s a 1 time grant that they want to do or the best fit funders package or or something more extensive to get to help them see. Ah. Kind of ah, an an overall picture of their organization’s health and that has been helpful to say hey look you know you and and a lot of it is is self-reported and so I send their senior leadership their staff a survey across these these different levers and they they report.

 

23:33.50

Preston Lee

So oh cool.

 

23:38.95

Garrett Clawson

You know out of one out of 10 I think our leadership cares about the people on the ground or whatever it is and part part of what I do before I even do the grant writing is show them the results of that survey and and show them. Okay, here’s here’s where the pain points are that that you’ve expressed that your staff has expressed and. Yeah, we can start to tackle some of those things or we can do this more limited grants package so it gives them. Yeah, some some latitude to decide what they want to do.

 

24:06.97

Preston Lee

That’s really cool. Um, yeah I love the idea of getting the pain points directly from them and then addressing those um as part of your package. That’s really really neat. So okay, so let’s let’s keep going here. Let’s talk about so we’ve identified what your business might look like ah in in a year from now we’ve talked about maybe this. Idea of upselling or or different price structuring and how to work that all out what what else is what else? Do you see as a hurdle or a question or something you’re facing when you look forward twelve months and you say you know we’ve painted this picture what it should look like what’s standing in your way and how can I help today.

 

24:40.70

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, ah so I think like a lot of like a lot of people that have called in before I I am not a natural marketer I have never taken a marketing course. Um I am am taking the morning marketing habit class right now that.

 

24:55.00

Preston Lee

Um, god.

 

24:57.71

Garrett Clawson

Um.

 

25:01.90

Preston Lee

Yeah, I’m looking it up. Um I’ve heard of it but I can’t It’s been a minute since I heard of it. Let’s see.

 

25:05.15

Garrett Clawson

It’s because I’ve used moxie and um oh he’s gonna be so mad at me when I can’t think of his name Austin Church

 

25:11.41

Preston Lee

Ah, well, we’ll either let this be funny or we will oh yeah Austin yes of course Austin Church yeah and yeah, good good friend. Um doing some really cool stuff I had forgotten that he made this the morning marketing habit. Yeah yeah, very cool. No, that’s great. You’re good will will ah we’ll link to this as well for the listeners.

 

25:26.63

Garrett Clawson

Ah, sorry Preston I derailed this.

 

25:31.42

Preston Lee

Um, you can check this out as well. But if you go to freelancecake.com that’s Austin’s website and he has his courses there of course and 1 of them is this morning marketing habit. Yeah, absolutely.

 

25:34.85

Garrett Clawson

Yeah.

 

25:42.48

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, so that that’s been a great course and a great asset so far but that is definitely not something that comes naturally to me and so I’ve I’ve been trying to do my due diligence ah read the books the Seth Godin this is marketing get more clients. Yeah, all these different books and.

 

25:59.12

Garrett Clawson

I Think what what I’m really wrestling with right now is is a lot of the the lead magnets right? like the the goal is to provide value to someone. Yeah before you they you expect them to sign up to to pay for something from you and I think what I’m really starting to see and and want to get ahead of.

 

26:04.55

Preston Lee

Oh um.

 

26:18.89

Garrett Clawson

Is is generative Ai right? So before someone to put hours into building an ebook or some template that was really helpful for someone. Um, or even honestly like newsletters and things like that now. Um that that an you know chatchi bt or bared can generate in and seconds or minutes at most.

 

26:37.53

Preston Lee

Ah.

 

26:38.90

Garrett Clawson

Um, and so you know obviously just basic supply and demand right? as there’s more supply of those things the the value the inherent value of those things goes down and so I’m curious. You know what? you know if you were kind of in my position you know six months into a new venture. Um. How would you I guess utilize those in a way that still provided meaningful value to someone. Um, that is ah a potential prospect.

 

27:04.77

Preston Lee

Yeah that’s a great question because what you what you struggle up against is like how do I have a lead magnet that um, that provides value but but that doesn’t take up a bunch of my precious time particularly when it’s just you and and when even though you’re not billing by the hour or you may be but but when. You know your time really really matters in your business. Um, and and so the natural tendency is to say like well I’ll I’ll I’ll write or I’ll generate an ebook um or or some sort of written material something that people can read and learn from and I think I think that can work. It’s obviously you’re right, there’s. There’s a million billion of those in every nit I mean I mean but even before chat ept and all this ai stuff you know, ebooks just have been around forever and and um particularly as lead magnets have just been around forever and so that is.

 

27:59.35

Preston Lee

You know I I think it has to be really really compelling. Um I would say I probably download an ebook like as a lead magnet. Maybe once a year now where I used to all the time right? And so so I think that is I think you’re wise to to keep that in mind. Um.

 

28:01.28

Garrett Clawson

Yeah.

 

28:09.53

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah.

 

28:17.55

Preston Lee

For me what I’m learning recently is lead magnets perform much better if they align more closely with the service or with I should say with the thing that you’re actually selling and so if you’re selling a service. Well let me back up. So so an ebook then would be a great lead magnet for you know a small ebook would be a great lead magnet for.

 

28:24.45

Garrett Clawson

Oh.

 

28:36.90

Preston Lee

A larger book a printed book or even you know a course um a community things like that where it’s all information based so you have you give a little bit of information for free and then they buy a lot of information right? Um, you think about like when you have like a.

 

28:46.80

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah.

 

28:52.63

Preston Lee

Ah, free trial is kind of the same idea right? You get a month free of Youtube Premium to give it a try and you see the real value in in the thing and then you actually buy it and I think sometimes what we accidentally do is we create these lead magnets that are quite dissimilar from the service that we’re offering um because of that thing that I talked about in the beginning which is like.

 

29:10.10

Garrett Clawson

It’s good.

 

29:12.27

Preston Lee

I Can’t be offering this service for free to infinite number of people. Um, and so but but I so I think you have to you have to find the right balance between does this align with the service that I’m actually offering like this this initial like your kind of smallish package. You talked about with grants.

 

29:18.48

Garrett Clawson

Ah.

 

29:30.82

Preston Lee

I mean that would be obviously a great lead magnet right? It’s huge value. Um, and I wonder if you could just take a smaller slice of that and do like um you know, send me some information about your nonprofit and I will send you 3 places that you might not have considered to look for grants in the past and it’s. And it sounds like you’re doing a lot of backend work. But in reality you maybe you maybe set up this system where you have a whole list. Um, and you like maybe in a spreadsheet or somewhere you like give categories or um or whatever and and all it takes is like.

 

29:51.72

Garrett Clawson

Um.

 

29:54.27

Garrett Clawson

Move.

 

30:06.89

Preston Lee

Aligning the questions in the questionnaire with some columns in a spreadsheet and as soon as it filters it out. It basically just gives you 3 to 5 options and you just email it back to them like you could really automate that I think um, it would take work to set up on the front of it that’s kind of the idea right? and then a little bit less work ongoing.

 

30:16.56

Garrett Clawson

Yeah.

 

30:24.82

Preston Lee

And and then I think that aligns more with the the actual service that you provide right? and and instead of like here read this book because that’s just more work for them. The service you’re providing is less work for them and so I think your lead magnet should.

 

30:29.10

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah.

 

30:38.68

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, okay.

 

30:41.95

Preston Lee

Should reduce their workload because that’s what you’re selling I don’t know is that coming through at all.

 

30:46.30

Garrett Clawson

No, no yeah, no, that’s good and I’m even thinking and it’s a little less automated but but even like the the organizational health assessment right? that I was talking about earlier. Um I think that I’m trying to think through ways I could even utilize that and maybe.

 

30:53.90

Preston Lee

Yeah. Um, yeah.

 

31:02.63

Garrett Clawson

Maybe there’s a way to like Auto generate a report or something like that based on on responses that they submit or something like that that that at least helps them become aware of the of the problems and in some ways that benevolent strategies could come alongside them to address them. So yeah.

 

31:16.79

Preston Lee

Yeah, 100% I mean this would take some this would take some technology for sure. Um, depending on you know how comfortable we are with tech you might have to hire someone but like you know Seo companies come to mind. They’re the perfect example of this, you can get like a free seo audit and you just. You put in your your website and it just scans it for for very basic criteria of what makes. Ah, you know a website Seo friendly or whatever and then that just spits out an automated report and then it’s like if you want help with any of this. We’re here right? And so um.

 

31:46.67

Garrett Clawson

Yeah.

 

31:50.10

Preston Lee

Think you could do something similar I don’t think it has to be quite as advanced as like scanning a website but um, yeah, like you said they could they could input some things about their business and you could I would imagine through some sort of form builder or again you could hire someone on fiverr or on upwork to help you with this. Um, but you you develop some sort of form where they fill it out and based on their answers. It generates suggestions and then you say and these are all good Suggestions. You’re welcome to execute on these on your own if you need help executing on them I’m here I’ve done it for other clients with great Success. You know, um, that would be a natural lead in.

 

32:24.96

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, and it may even be just because you know we’re not talking about at least not yet you know dozens of leads a day pouring in and so it may even be worth especially if you’re talking about ah a more significant financial investment on their side. Um scheduling. Ah.

 

32:32.83

Preston Lee

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

32:44.74

Garrett Clawson

Ah, 30 minute thing with them or an hour with them to walk through the results of their survey so you give the survey to them for free the assessment to them for free schedule an hour with them walk them through the results and and effectively talk to them about what how you could come alongside them to address those issues.

 

32:48.23

Preston Lee

Um, yeah.

 

32:58.90

Preston Lee

Yeah, and and you know I think you have to walk the fine line between that being a sales call and being actually adding value right? Um, because again you’re selling. You’re selling that you’re going to save them time and effort. Um, and so if you take up their time with with a call it. It definitely needs to be high value as opposed to like.

 

33:04.92

Garrett Clawson

Sure yeah.

 

33:17.20

Preston Lee

Obviously at the end of it. You’re going to sell. They’re going to know that. But but if you can make it super high value. Um, yeah, yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

 

33:24.60

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so because yeah, no one wants to sit through at the time I guess Timeshare calls are different because you at least get fed usually but ah but you’re right? No one.

 

33:31.97

Preston Lee

Ah, yeah, yeah, but but you know no one wants to hop on a sales call fire an hour. Ah so.

 

33:36.52

Garrett Clawson

Totally yeah I think that’s great and I think that that survey the survey results should provide some value to them to at least kind of give them some insight into how their people are feeling what help them better articulate the issues that they’re experiencing. Yeah and then.

 

33:48.82

Preston Lee

Yeah, you know you know what you could do too is like um to to really make sure that you stay within because the whole point of the lead magnet too is like that you’re not wasting a bunch of your time and effort on it when not necessary. Although I will let me pause I’m going to come back. So so what I was going to say just so that I remember.

 

33:54.21

Garrett Clawson

I Can do that.

 

34:06.50

Preston Lee

Is we could do a video version of this. So let me say that in just a second. But before I say that um I do think ah I think it was Gary Vaynerchuk has some good advice on this where he’s talking about like building audiences. But I think this applies when you have when you have um when you’re smaller and you’re trying to get like just. Build up this book of business. Yeah, you can you said this garret you can spend more time with like high touch um opportunities where you’re really invested in even for free invested in in your client’s success through your lead magnet as that as that grows and you get more and more. You know leads and more and more referrals and whatever. Obviously you’re going to have to adjust that. But I love your way of thinking about that where you say you know upfront now I can spend a little more time. It’s fine. Um, especially if a client a new client comes out the the other end of the whole process right? So yeah.

 

34:52.69

Garrett Clawson

yeah yeah that’s great um so yeah I want to circle around if you if you’re okay with it circling a background just for a second on on the ai piece. So what does it look like to to leverage that in a way that doesn’t just like throw more junk into like. The the huge mountain of internet junk that’s already out there.

 

35:16.67

Preston Lee

Yeah, yeah for me. So let me say this real quick piece about video and then I will talk about ai so so I think you could also do like a call like or not a call the idea of a call but over video so you make like a maybe a loom. Um, I’m thinking of like web designers who do this and then you easily keep it to 15 minutes right so it’s like you submit your website. You get a website audit and then I do a 15 minute loom and I say here’s all the stuff that we could fix and make better and you could do that same thing with their organizations right? So anyway so you could do that call. You’re talking about maybe the next level is once you know once you start getting. More and less more leads less time you can do like a video version ten fifteen minutes just knock them out all in one day anyway something to keep in mind. So so ai um, that to me is the biggest struggle with ai is we were already generating as as a species.

 

35:59.94

Garrett Clawson

Her.

 

36:13.50

Preston Lee

So much content before Ai came around right and now it’s just like even in it’s not even been a full year since chat Gpt has been a big deal and it’s just like that you can just tell there’s just like so much more Ai generated content video written all of it images. Um.

 

36:15.40

Garrett Clawson

Now.

 

36:30.96

Preston Lee

So I don’t know if there’s a way to generate stuff through ai and not add to the pile of stuff because everyone’s doing it. It’s it’s going to be a big part of it the way I have found to leverage Ai in perhaps a smarter way or at least a more effective way for my business. Is to use Ai as more of a partner instead of an employee right? and so I might say hey chat apt I’m thinking through writing a small ebook on the following and here’s the outline I have.

 

36:49.90

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, yeah, that’s good.

 

37:02.95

Preston Lee

Is there anything you see that might be missing that I should include and then they’ll be like oh maybe in this chapter you should include da duh. It’s like oh great and then you can go write that or they can give you you know chat Gpt could generate it depending on how how you want to work that but I tend to I tend to work with chat Gpt and I do a lot in my business but more.

 

37:06.67

Garrett Clawson

Oh.

 

37:21.74

Preston Lee

Ah, more to like sounds silly because it’s not a person but like to bounce ideas to to um, fill in gaps that I know I have to say like what should this include that I’m not thinking of right a minute.

 

37:34.89

Garrett Clawson

Yeah.

 

37:36.78

Preston Lee

In theory then it takes the whole of the human experience and says well most people who talk about this thing that you’re talking about. They also talk about this thing so you should probably include that that’s kind of how how I tend to use chat Gpt instead of just write me a book about whatever.

 

37:51.88

Garrett Clawson

Yeah, and and I’ve you know, just experimenting of course like I’ve tried to to ask it to do some of like these longer pieces and once it once it once it gets a past about 3 paragraphs. It’s its gets pretty easy to tell that it’s tragedy. Be.

 

37:57.78

Preston Lee

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I think no and you know there are tools that are that are getting.

 

38:07.84

Garrett Clawson

Um, so so yeah I Totally agree I think there’s still it’s not to a place where it’s It’s capable of replacing the human writer.

 

38:16.60

Preston Lee

Are using it well or not chat jpt necessarily but using Ai. Well you know Jasper I’ve heard does really good work. My friend Ryan is building a tool called write blogger um, that helps with those long form issues. Ah so you know there’s there’s options out there I’m sure there are Ai ebook. Writing writing services I I have no doubt there’s probably thousands of them already. Um, but but for me, it’s it’s sort of like how do I augment the work I’m already doing with AiNot how do I replace the work I’m doing but how can I make it better or or faster right? you could train.

 

38:44.19

Garrett Clawson

Yeah.

 

38:52.50

Preston Lee

In 1 of your threads with chat Gpt. You just keep the same thread because contextually, it’ll remember the things you talk about and you can have ah you can have a saved thread that um that it’s like here’s the submission I just got from this business based on the things we’ve talked about what recommendations would you make to them and then it just.

 

38:59.11

Garrett Clawson

That’s good.

 

39:09.73

Preston Lee

Expedites What you would do Anyway, you know, um, and and types it out in a for them and you could send it over So after you review it. But anyway.

 

39:14.63

Garrett Clawson

Um, yeah.

 

39:21.99

Garrett Clawson

Now that’s good and I think and I’m sure people felt this way when like the computer was invented as well. It ah you know at first it’s like it definitely speeds things up but then you almost feel like you’re you’re not providing the same level of value to the client as you were before when you had to do it by hand and so ah.

 

39:23.87

Preston Lee

Right.

 

39:39.86

Garrett Clawson

It’s learning like you said that if anything that that gives you additional time to provide more value to them right? because now you’re not having to do this administrative kind of low-level work. You’re able to think more creatively think about strategy think about program design in ah in a way that is yeah more tailored to them. So.

 

39:43.57

Preston Lee

Um, yes, yeah.

 

39:53.77

Preston Lee

Yeah I think that’s I think that’s where we’re going to see people particularly and I’m no ai expert. But I have spent probably too much time just geeking out over it and I think that’s where we’re going to see particularly like freelancers or small business owners really winning with Ai in the first few years here is going to be.

 

39:57.44

Garrett Clawson

Like that’s really good.

 

40:08.20

Garrett Clawson

With.

 

40:11.46

Preston Lee

How do I do more of what I’m already doing in the same amount of time this is particularly true when you’re a solopreneur. You’re the only person in your company and you have 24 hours in a day max. It’s like okay, how do I do what I’m already doing do more of it without working more because of the power of Ai.

 

40:27.42

Garrett Clawson

Um, yeah, that’s really good.

 

40:30.12

Preston Lee

Yeah, well good man this is a lot of fun work. We’re coming up on the end here but I want to make sure if you have any questions we could do some rapid fire if there’s anything you feel like is standing in your way here to get to that level 6 that you want in a year I mean what else what have we left out anything.

 

40:47.60

Garrett Clawson

Now we talked about a lot of the big stuff. Um, there’s been a lot of of really good takeaways I think being able to to leverage that organizational health assessment and ah schedule some time to to start building you know, mother like you said, maybe it’s an hour. Maybe it’s a small nominal fee that they pay to be part of that. Um.

 

40:47.92

Preston Lee

Well.

 

41:03.40

Preston Lee

Um, yeah.

 

41:05.21

Garrett Clawson

To to still give them some ownership and some you know stake in the game but using that as an opportunity to to help them understand the problems that they’re experiencing to start building that rapport with them and that facetoface context and then help them. You know cast some vision for what what a longer? ah. More robust engagement can look like so I think that’s good and then yeah, definitely want to start thinking through um some of those kind of retainer style flat fee packages.

 

41:30.70

Preston Lee

Um, yeah, cool. Yeah I think I think those 2 2 big items would take you a long way over the next six or twelve months um I’m reminded I read this morning in Pat Flynn’s news newsletter. It’s called unstuck and he was talking about. Um I can’t remember what he said but it was something like if you if. If they won’t hire you or if they won’t bring you on or whatever show them first. What you can do. He talked about his friend Noah Kagan who runs um appsumo and he was like employee 30 at Facebook or something anyway and super interesting guy. Um, and I’ve I’ve sort of followed him online as well as Pat but um.

 

42:00.92

Garrett Clawson

Um.

 

42:09.76

Preston Lee

He he wanted to be hired by a company by mint. Ah, the money company and and and wanted to come on as their marketing person and the Ceo was like you don’t have any marketing experience. He’s like oh yeah. So then instead he drafted up this giant marketing plan and the c and sent to the Ceo who hired him on the spot because the plan was so good and so all that to say you know? um.

 

42:30.79

Garrett Clawson

Me.

 

42:36.58

Preston Lee

You know when you can’t just tell them or when when you can’t just sell them on it if all it fails show them what you can do right? So I Love what you’re saying about this like spend some time with them and upfront you might take a loss on that. But in the long run. It’s going to be worth it because they’re much more likely to hire you.

 

42:54.50

Garrett Clawson

Totally and I think if if the objective you know to to get to a 6 right is to do these longer term engagements where you you effectively come on as a fractional x um that that is like that hour is.

 

42:59.92

Preston Lee

Um, and.

 

43:06.90

Preston Lee

Oh yeah, yeah, even a half a day or a day um would be well worth it if it means yeah if they’re going to bring you on for a 2 year contract that’s completely worth it right? So yeah I agree good point.

 

43:07.17

Garrett Clawson

Well spent. Um, if it means getting to build a relationship with them. Yeah.

 

43:21.20

Garrett Clawson

Call.

 

43:22.40

Preston Lee

Right? man? Well why don’t you let all the listeners know one last time where they can find you if there’s any nonprofits listening that want to hire you that would be incredible I Know we’ve also had grant writers on the show before. So maybe there’s people you can network with that might be able to help your business but let us know where we can connect with you.

 

43:33.10

Garrett Clawson

Cool. Yeah, absolutely so you can see more about benevolent strategies learn about our services sign up for my newsletter at benevolent strategiesies.com and that is b e n e v o l e n t strategies.

 

43:51.22

Preston Lee

Awesome I love it Garrett! Thank you so much for taking time to come on the show today man all right take care. We’ll see. Yeah.

 

43:53.50

Garrett Clawson

Dot com. Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks.