Juggling a full-time job while also trying to grow a freelance business on the side is a common challenge many face. But with the right mindset and tactics, you can find success in both.
In this episode of Freelance to Founder, host Preston interviews Travis Boyco, a graphic designer and marketer who has built up a freelance business while working a 9-5 marketing job. They discuss the hurdles and strategies for maximizing your side hustle.
- Focus on executing marketing campaigns rather than getting stuck planning endlessly. Consistent action is more valuable than a perfect theoretical plan.
- Start with just one marketing channel like SEO or social media. Optimize it before expanding your efforts across multiple platforms.
- Track performance data from day one to see what’s generating leads and revenue. Double down on what’s working and cut what isn’t.
Focus On Taking Action Over Planning
Preston emphasizes taking action over extensive planning. While planning has value for generating tasks, executing on those tasks is what truly brings results. Don’t let planning prevent you from doing.
He advises starting to market yourself right away, then adapting as you learn what works. The value comes from consistent action, not elaborate theoretical plans.
Use Phases as a Framework
While comprehensive marketing plans aren’t needed, having some structure can help. Co-host Clay Mosley shares his simple 5-phase approach:
1. Foundations (branding, offers, etc)
2. Sales Sprint
3. Automated Nurturing System
4. Lead Gen Campaigns
5. Evergreen Platforms (SEO, social media)
This high-level framework provides direction without rigidity.
Start With One Marketing Channel
When starting out, it’s tempting to dabble across every platform. But a scattershot approach rarely succeeds.
Instead, pick one or two channels like SEO or social media. Learn the nuances, optimize your approach, and only expand once you have traction. Establish one effective channel before branching out.
Track Marketing Performance
To know what’s working, you must track key metrics like leads generated, conversion rates, and revenue per channel. This allows you to double down on what’s effective and trim what isn’t producing results.
Monitor marketing data from the very beginning to inform where you spend time and money.
Tap Into Emotions
Preston has found marketing success comes from evoking emotions, not just appealing to logic. Different channels elicit different emotional responses.
Understand the feeling you want to create with your audience, then choose channels accordingly. This psychological approach can boost results.
Overcome Analysis Paralysis
Elaborate theoretical plans often exist just to fill textbook pages, not because they work well in reality. Avoid analysis paralysis, especially early on.
Instead, get clear on your target audience, offer, and desired emotion first. Then execute campaigns, track data, and adapt quickly based on what resonates.
Consistency trumps over-engineering a perfect plan. Focus on doing the actual work, then refine as you learn.
Managing Client Relationships
Part of Travis’ challenge is managing client relationships while having a day job. He finds it difficult to take on more work when his availability is limited.
Preston notes that these pain points often drive growth. Without them, it’s tempting to remain complacent. Intentionally building in challenges can force you to expand your business.
For example, investing in an employee would require more revenue, pushing Travis to dedicate more time to his side hustle.
Develop a Financial Safety Net
Travis is hesitant to fully commit to his business without the safety net of a full-time job. To ease this transition, Preston suggests calculating your “runway.”
Tally your monthly expenses based on your desired lifestyle. Then add up savings and projected income from your freelance work. The result is how long you can sustain your current life without your day job salary.
Many aim for a 12-18 month runway before going all in on their business. This provides security to leave your job, knowing you have ample time to stabilize your freelance income.
Adopt a CEO Mindset
As your own boss, you must balance creative passions with wise business decisions. This involves putting on a “CEO hat” and setting profit-focused boundaries.
For example, deciding I must charge X per project or spend no more than Y hours. Separate what you enjoy creatively from choices that sustain the business.
Learning business finance and strategy takes continuous effort for creatives. But it’s crucial for growing beyond a hobby into a thriving company.
Define Your Future Vision
Since Travis enjoys his day job, he’s in no rush to go all in on freelancing. But he also desires more consistency in his side business.
Preston emphasizes defining a longer term vision, like matching his current salary within 2 years. This provides direction without forcing big immediate changes.
With intentionality around growth, Travis can build towards his definition of success on his own timeline.
Episode Transcript
This transcript was auto-generated and may have grammatical errors.
00:01.84
Preston
Hey there and welcome back to another episode of freelance to founder. My name is Preston Lee with milo.co and joining me on the air today is my new friend Travis really quickly before we introduce Travis you might be used to me saying that joining me on the air is my friend Clay Mosley from get dripify.com clay. Ah on the day we’re recording this. He texted me and he was like my power’s gone out. Ah apparently they don’t know how to handle the cold in Texas sorry texans. Ah but um, Clay is not able to join us today unfortunately so we’ll catch him next time but I am excited to have Travis boyco here. Um, joining me on the air hey Travis how you doing good man excited that you’re here. Ah I’m excited to talk about your business today. We were talking a little before we hit record. Um I think we’re going to have some really interesting things to talk about. But why don’t you.
00:37.72
Travis Boyco
Fantastic! Thanks for having me.
00:51.29
Preston
Update the listeners really quick. Give them an idea of your what your business is what it kind of looks like what you what services you offer that kind of thing. Yeah.
00:59.50
Travis Boyco
Yeah, absolutely so ah, hey everybody my name is Travis I’m based out of Ottawa in Canada um, I’m a graphic designer writer and I suppose all around marketer I basically help companies kind of stand out a little bit more in the digital age and help them navigate kind of. Strange time that we live in digitally um, essentially I offer a ah ah pretty comprehensive amount of services that I’m trying to really hone in but primarily it’s graphic design services kind of branding and identity services and over I suppose the past two years I’ve really found. There’s um. A larger need for things like slide deck and pitch deck services and writing and content services to really help people kind of men is their time and and be kind of the person who’s working in the background and help them kind of succeed and and make sure that they can get their stuff done on time.
01:50.31
Preston
Its cool I love it. So if if listeners want to follow along while we’re chatting they can check out your business at travisboyco.com just like it sounds and you know I’m looking at your website right now as we chat and it’s really fantastic, really well-designed looks really great. Um, so well done.
02:04.70
Travis Boyco
Thanks I appreciate it. Thank you. There’s a lot of a labor of love I suppose. Yeah.
02:07.89
Preston
yeah yeah absolutely yeah I really love some of these elements. Um, so be sure to follow along on Travis’s website and and so Travis tell us how long have you been sort of at this. I know this is a side hustle for you tell us sort of what the situation is there just paint us kind of a picture of what your what your relationship with this business looks like.
02:29.32
Travis Boyco
Yeah, absolutely so I would say it really kicked off really at the beginning of the pandemic I’ve I’ve always been someone who’s kind of done kind of slide side hustles or or freelance work on the side. Normally when I’m. Doing kind of like my full-time job I Just like to to be a bit creative and and it’s not always usually for money I’m usually just like yeah, why not let’s get involved in it something creative I I like helping out I like to to be creative in my free time. But really when what? yeah.
02:51.24
Preston
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool and what do you? sorry? What do you do? What’s your what’s your job.. What do you do? full time.
03:02.58
Travis Boyco
Yeah, absolutely so by day I am a marketing andcoms manager for professional services and engineering firm. So very similar role to to what I do on on my on my side hustle as well. Yeah, of course. Um, so yeah I would I would say it really did kick off more during covid.
03:04.79
Preston
Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, cool, cool. Okay sorry keep going.
03:20.13
Travis Boyco
I had so much time I had plenty of opportunity to to kind of be creative and I noticed there was a huge uptick in in terms of what people are looking for and and how much they need freelancers. So I really started to capitalize on that and I mean fortunately I’ve never really done any. Proactive Marketing it’s It’s really just been word-of- mouth referrals through contacts and friends and and things like that. So. It’s it’s been It’s been pretty good. But yeah at the same time like you said I am doing my my full-time job. It’s it’s really only evenings and weekends when i’m. When I’m able to do it I like to keep the two very separate so it’s really managing managing that time. Yeah.
04:02.80
Preston
Yeah, yeah, well I know that feeling for sure. Um I I was mentioning before we hit record here that I I worked on my business on the side of a full-time job for 8 years so I know that feeling of like wanting to keep them separate but also wanting to make progress on both of them and. It takes a lot of work and a lot of ah self-control I think a lot of discipline um to be able to pull that off so congrats to you.
04:23.70
Travis Boyco
Yeah, yeah, thanks it. It is tough. It’s ah you’re constantly kind of juggling what you want to do what you’re able to do it’s you always see opportunity to to kind of move it forward and you see these these different opportunities. Especially as someone who’s who’s doing marketing on the day-to-day basis I’m like. I could be doing so much more.. There’s so many different things that I could be working on but that’s that’s not always a reality.
04:41.43
Preston
Ah.
04:45.66
Preston
Yeah, it’s funny so clay and I are both marketers by trade and you know we sort of have we have varied skill sets but at the end of the day like a marketer as a marketer a lot of times and and yeah, it’s like you almost I I don’t know anyone in marketing who doesn’t have at least some entrepreneurial. Ah, Spark somewhere to just go like oh I could totally I could totally sell that or I could totally promote that to someone and and make it work or here’s an idea that could work I think because naturally you’re just always thinking about how would I sell this. How would I pitch this. How would I grow this. How would I improve this and and um and so a lot of times. Us Marketers We have side hustles. Um I I’m trying to think of like a single marketer that I know that doesn’t either work for themselves or have a side hustle and I can’t come up with one so it’s pretty common.
05:31.40
Travis Boyco
Yeah, yeah, absolutely I think just the the nature of being in the creative field. It’s people just want to be creative and I think especially when it comes to marketing if if you can sell things and make money off of it. Yeah, absolutely why? not and exactly and I think for me a lot of.
05:37.62
Preston
Yeah, yeah, yeah, why not right.
05:48.45
Travis Boyco
A lot of my background is is kind of technical as well. So like I said I do a lot of graphic design. So it is. There’s an opportunity to to put that creativity in and and build kind of things from from the ground up I suppose as opposed to maybe just oh I have an idea. Let’s let’s see where it goes I’m like oh let me let me get in there.
06:06.58
Preston
Yeah, yeah, I love that let’s um, let’s transition here into your your survey that you took as you joined us on the air and for listeners who may not be familiar. We. We love having guests like Travis here on the show. The goal is to give you any advice we can to move your business forward. Travis you listened to a few episodes and you heard maybe the same thing that I’m about to say which is if you want to join us on the show. We’d love to have you you can visit freelance tofounder.com and you just scroll to the bottom of the page There’s a really quick questionnaire. It’s not very long. It just is a few questions. Um, but on that questionnaire we ask you. On a scale of 1 to 10 one being a complete freelancer 10 being a founder or you know running your own business. Maybe employees that sort of thing where would you rank yourself and and Travis you rank yourself currently at a 4 so experienced freelancer. Fair amount of clients doing a fair bit of work but that you put that in the next six or twelve months you’d like to be more at an 8 could you could you tell me what an 8 looks like in your mind what does your business look like a year from now in a perfect world.
07:10.18
Travis Boyco
Yeah, absolutely I think in in a couple months I think the idea is to kind of be a little bit more self-sufficient have a regular flow of of work coming in have a kind of steady flow of clients coming In. Um. I Do have a few regular clients right now which is good. Um, but I think sometimes I do kind of fall into the the more ad hoc work. Not necessarily a trap but like you kind of do one project and then it’s kind of radio silence for a little bit.
07:34.38
Preston
Yeah.
07:41.27
Preston
Yeah, yeah.
07:43.40
Travis Boyco
So I think moving forward to that Eight would just be have a little bit more regular flow of of business and be able to kind of do it more consistently without without kind of waiting for the what’s next.
07:53.15
Preston
I yeah I’m not shocked by that where you said most of your business comes from referrals. We we hear that from a lot of people who call in. Um, you know a referral based business is fantastic because for the most part it’s free marketing right? But um, but it can be less predictable right? It can be like in September Twenty people call you and.
08:04.95
Travis Boyco
Exactly like.
08:12.59
Preston
In October no one calls you and it and it can be very feast famine. So um, that’ll that’ll be interesting to talk about today I love the idea of um, sort of making your business more predictable more reliable, a little building a little bit more of a foundation there tell me what. What? Um, what your team looks like if any in the next year you you don’t currently have anyone else working with you right? Yeah cool. Do you want to keep it I mean there’s nothing wrong with keeping it that way I’m just curious. You want to keep it that way. Do you want to add some subcontractors or something or or what is.
08:32.71
Travis Boyco
Yeah, it’s it’s entirely myself just just sold me.
08:45.18
Preston
Tell me what the business looks like in that regard a year from now.
08:47.84
Travis Boyco
Yeah, definitely and and that’s something that I’m I’m open to discussing as well. It’s it’s something that I don’t really have a whole whole lot of insight into um I mean quite honestly a lot of the a lot of the work that I do is just it’s just been myself and I’m sure a lot of lot of guests probably say the same thing it’s they’re they’re used to working on their own and kind of.
09:01.30
Preston
Um, ah.
09:05.52
Travis Boyco
Being a jack- of-ultres and getting it all done themselves I mean I do enjoy doing that Ideally, it would be it would be awesome to bring someone else on board and and help kind of spread the the workout and maybe even some of the areas where where I might be able to focus more on a lot of the work that I do.
09:18.70
Preston
Yeah.
09:21.10
Travis Boyco
Does tend to be a little bit more of that graphic design and creative kind of area. So some some of the other areas that I do offer services on but could also get some additional support on that would be fantastic.
09:26.40
Preston
No, ah.
09:31.57
Preston
Cool, okay, cool. so ah so I think the the last question and and people always ask this right when you have a side hustle again I had 1 for 8 years I know what it’s like and again I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer here right? But um. Is your goal then in the next year or maybe next few years to take the business full time or do you just want to have like a really successful side hustle.
09:54.41
Travis Boyco
Yeah,, that’s that’s a great question and I mean I think in an ideal world. Yeah I would love to to be completely self-sufficient and and do this full time I think the the idea of being a creative and and doing. The things that I’m really interested in doing and doing the projects that I want to work on sounds super super enticing. But right now I’m I’m honestly I am fortunate that I do like my my day-to-day Job. It’s not something that I’m actively trying to to escape from or anything like that. So at the moment I am really keen to to build it to.
10:23.32
Preston
Yeah.
10:30.14
Travis Boyco
A point where I am really proud of and if that does mean that I can take that full-time. Absolutely I I would absolutely encourage that too.
10:34.83
Preston
Cool I Love that So keeping your options open but not necessarily pushing one way or the other at this point. Yeah cool. Well I love that. Okay, so let’s let’s talk through then maybe some of the hurdles that you’re facing So what? What do you when you picture this business a year from now.
10:40.86
Travis Boyco
Exactly.
10:53.65
Preston
You’re at an 8 on the scale. You’ve sort of painted what that looks like for us. What do you see as the biggest hurdles. What are some of the biggest things holding you back from getting to where you want to be at this point.
11:02.53
Travis Boyco
Yeah I mean for me and I’m I’m sure it’s kind of the same story for everyone else. It’s It’s a lot of time management challenges and really understanding when that transition should really happen and when when to really know when to put more.
11:12.57
Preston
Um.
11:19.13
Travis Boyco
Effort in and and how to to manage that time to get more clients and and to be able to to do work efficiently and and just kind of move it forward when you’re when you’re kind of working with ah a full-time role right? There’s There’s only so many hours in a day and and it’s difficult to to know when when the next step should be.
11:37.21
Preston
Yeah, for sure. Um, walk me through a few a few other aspects of your life like what else takes up time in your life. Are you married? Do you have kids? Do you have a partner. Do you have do you have like time consuming hobbies or is it mostly like work and your side hustle.
11:49.49
Travis Boyco
Yeah, for sure. So it is I mean primarily it it is work in my side hustle I do have a partner my girlfriend and I we live here in Ottawa with our dog. Um I don’t have any kids so there’s not There’s not that big of ah a time commitment on on the outside of my my 9 to 5 I suppose um, we also like to. To keep busy travel and and do all the fun stuff like that. But yeah I can carve out a good chunk of time to to commit to my my personal business for sure.
12:18.19
Preston
Cool. Yeah, yeah, perfect. But so the real So the real question is like in the time that I do have which is a fair amount of time. How do I optimize that time. Um, where you might only have an hour 2 3 maybe 4 on a good day. Ah you know where you can work on the side business. Because also you don’t want to cut like what people don’t realize is your side Hustle. It can be tough because you work all day long and then you come home and the last thing you want to do is work some more at least for a long period of time like that. It’s just it’s a lot to handle and then you you add that on top of you know your your partner and your social life and like all those things it can be. Can be a lot to handle so is that is that kind of where we’re headed is like how do I manage the time that I do have to grow the business despite only having maybe less than a few hours a day.
13:02.99
Travis Boyco
Yeah, exactly I think that is definitely it I think a lot because a lot of the work that I do on my my day-to-day is very similar to the work that I do in my freelance business. My My brain can kind of get get a bit tired which is totally understandable. But I Also think one of the things that I do just struggle with is. Is knowing when to kind of ramp up the the business and and to commit that time to to getting more work in because like if I’m thinking about it logically if the more the more that I commit to to taking a new work the more time that I’ll need to commit sometimes clients might need to operate during like business hours.
13:30.11
Preston
Ah.
13:40.12
Travis Boyco
And when I say oh well I actually can’t really do anything until the evening or potentially the weekends I’m kind of almost limiting myself based off of my own time constraints. So it is it. It is one part just general maintenance of of the the day-to-day and being.
13:48.97
Preston
Ah.
13:56.54
Travis Boyco
Kind of mentally there. But also yeah it is It is just setting expectations with time. Ah for for the clients that I do have.
14:02.11
Preston
Um, yeah, that’s such a good point. It can be really difficult to manage those client relationships. Do you on on your side work. Do you find that you mostly work with clients locally like like face-to-face in person or are you mostly working with them online remote.
14:15.94
Travis Boyco
Yeah, fortunately a lot of the work does happen remote. Um I did used to live in the the greater toronto area. So a lot of my clients are kind of based out of of that area. Um I’ve since moved but the the clients have kind of remained so it is is I mean these days. It’s relatively easy to to catch up over Zoom or.
14:19.88
Preston
Okay.
14:29.95
Preston
Cool. Yeah yeah, and you have flexibility during your day job to like like could you take an hour lunch and and have some lunch and do a little bit of side business work or is that kind of off the table.
14:35.23
Travis Boyco
Ah, Google Hangout or anything like that.
14:44.32
Travis Boyco
Yeah, yeah for sure. Um, fortunately my my my current role is is very flexible I do work some interesting hours sometimes anyways so it is it’s It’s not unheard of um but I think at the same time I I am just trying to be as cognizant as possible to to kind of respect.
14:54.66
Preston
Um, yeah.
15:02.22
Preston
For sure for sure. Yeah I I actually really admire that. Um, like I said that’s maybe 1 of the hardest things about a ah side hustle that you’re taking seriously because it can be so easy.
15:02.56
Travis Boyco
One boundary with with another and make sure that they they don’t blend into too much.
15:16.61
Preston
If You’re sort of a lackluster employee. It can be really easy to spend work time on your business. Um I Found it hard to sleep at night if I ever did that and I tried to be as upfront and honest as I could with my employer with my my direct Boss. Ah, but then also I Love what you said about balancing the other half which is like um, not letting. Your job get in the way of your side hustle like your side hustle is a priority as well and just like you would guard family time or whatever you you also guard your side hustle time from from your job and you know one thing may have to give at any given time. But for the most part I Love that you draw those Boundaries. So.
15:53.45
Travis Boyco
Yeah.
15:55.68
Preston
Let’s let’s talk. Let’s talk a little bit about this idea of like time management. Ah when to I Love this question of like when do I commit to more when do I ramp up How do I handle that where I still have my full time job. Um I’ve I’ve had a few thoughts I’ve been taking some notes. I Think for me the the big thing and you can tell me if this if this resonates with what you’re thinking for me. The big thing is like you’re in a really good place with your job right now and you’re in a good place with your side hustle and so there’s no like pain right? It’s just all all good. Um, and and so.
16:25.71
Travis Boyco
Exactly exactly it’s the toilet.
16:32.71
Preston
Quite often like those pain points will actually drive us toward growth. Um, and so you know some some people will go as far as to say like you should quit your job and then you just have to rely on your income I’m not sure I’m that person necessarily um I believe in a safety net I believe in and and. And where you like your job like you don’t necessarily even have to take the business full time. But I do think 1 thing that’s missing here is like some intentionality about the future. Um I think some of these concerns and issues will go away if you can say my 5 ive-year goal is. To just have a killer side hustle where I make you know, maybe 50% of what I’m making at my day job or I match my day job income or whatever like but but just to kind of just to kind of say I’m doing well at my job I’m doing well in my side business. We’ll see where this goes I think that makes it hard to know. When to put in more effort and what effort to put in does that I don’t know if does that kind of resonate with your situation. What do you think yeah.
17:29.77
Travis Boyco
Yeah, definitely I Would absolutely say say that’s true I think it is it is knowing when you’re going to commit a bit further I think it can it. It can kind of not necessarily set you back, but it’s definitely not helping moving forward if I don’t have any kind of rigid. Um, targets to hit for for my own kind of business I Think that’s definitely true I Think the comfort issue it. It is a real thing and it will kind of keep me stuck in in my one spot if I if I’m not really.
17:58.57
Preston
Yeah.
18:00.34
Travis Boyco
Looking to to move it. Forward. So yeah, 100% and and what you mentioned about just kind of having that cushion and and kind of that safety net I think that’s one of the the challenges as well. I’ve never personally ran any sort of freelance business prior to this or any personal business or anything like that. So. All I really do know is is kind of that 9 to 5 situation and and this the safety net is is honestly it is a kind of a question Mark I don’t even really know what that looks like so I guess to your point in combination with with not having those those rigid.
18:33.36
Preston
Yeah.
18:34.92
Travis Boyco
Kind of one year out or six months out or or those kind of things matched with that. Um, that safety net it’s yeah it’s it’s kind of a bit of a question mark.
18:43.82
Preston
Yeah I I completely understand that let me if I can I’m going to share a littlewe of my story with you and my side my side hustle which is now my full-time business I um I started my side hustle before I got my first job out of university and um, and. It wasn’t really a business I mean I pretended like it was but I was I was barely making any money you know, um, not that many clients not that much work. But I was sort of just learning what it looked like I was nowhere near where you’re at um. Continued to build that business as I got my first job out of university and then I ended up working like I said before about 8 years um at a full-time job. Ah, and then after 8 years of working a few different jobs at a couple different companies ah out of nowhere completely blindsided by it. Um. Company laid off like half the people that were working there and I remember I remember this was so weird but I remember being so happy and so excited and I’ve thought about that I’ve thought back on like why I was excited and happy and and obviously I wanted to I wanted to give it a shot to take my business full time. But I think.
19:32.41
Travis Boyco
Oh.
19:49.10
Preston
Talking to my wife later about it I think I realized I was happy and I was excited because I knew that um without a push like that I’m not sure I ever would have done it right? There are some people who will take that leap and who who will go for it and I had been building this business for 8 years It was making as much or more than I was at my day job. And I still wasn’t pulling the trigger on this thing. Um, and again I’m not saying Travis you have to take it full time like everyone’s got their own situation. You got to figure out what you want but but there is something to that comfort right? There is something to that like um. Will say that the year the year after so I lost my job in the fall took the business full time had a few months to sort of get my feet under me. We did have ah a large safety net which I’m going to come back to in just a minute um to help you sort of sort that out. but um but the year after that was my best year by far like like. Over doubleled my revenue um that year because I was able to dedicate all of my working hours to the business and frankly I worked less. Ah not just because I was doing a side hustle and a full-time job. But I worked less hours than a full-time job and I still made. More money and it’s and it’s just increased every year. So. There’s definitely like a lot of opportunity. But but there’s also just that temptation of like well I’m really comfortable. You know, um, I’m really like I’m well paid at my job I’m making some good money on the side. No complaints. Um, and.
21:19.30
Preston
And again that can be fine if that’s what you want, but if you want to take the business full-time or if you want the business to be maybe bigger than it currently is you might have to say to yourself like I need to ah I’m not going to go quit necessarily but I might need to build in some pain points. Maybe I need to. Um, invest in some employees or something so where to where I have a little more skin in the game. Um I think there can be lots of different ways is what I’m getting at to to really build some skin in the game and some pain points that that force you to sort of think Okay, how can I grow this business more.
21:50.57
Travis Boyco
Yeah I find that really really interesting and in what you mentioned there about making almost the same as you were in your in your day job and you were still still kind of a bit a bit concerned to to do which I guess it’s an entirely mental game and there’s got to be that. It suppose like an inflection point where you’re just like okay this is this is the moment. That’s that’s where it’s going to be and and I can definitely relate to that I think I think that’s kind of it it like we were talking about before it is It is relatively straightforward things are going well on on both aspects. But I think yeah, there’s there’s probably has to be something.
22:12.53
Preston
A.
22:28.96
Travis Boyco
That’s going to kind of give me that that initial push Um, and maybe that’s something that I still need to figure out what that looks like.
22:36.60
Preston
Yeah, and I mean don’t get me wrong like there’s some real upside to having a successful side hustle and just letting that be that you’re so much more comfortable at work because you’re like well if I got fired tomorrow or if the company went under tomorrow I’d I’d be fine right? I have another source of income. Um, until I either decide to take it full time or I find another job. Um, you can you can leverage that toward like negotiating a higher salary I leveraged it to get a huge raise at a different job that I applied for um, like there’s just a lot of Chris Gillibbo talks about this in his book. The art of nonconformity I’m sorry ah the $100 startup where he talks about just there’s just like this confidence that you can find when you have your own business. Um, that doesn’t come otherwise when you’re solely reliant on a paycheck from your boss every week but um. But I wanted to talk a little bit about this idea of like a safety net because I think that’s where the confidence comes from so Travis is it okay with you if we if we riff for a minute on on safety net financial safety net particularly are there specific questions you have about it because I have some thoughts but I want to make sure we head in the right direction like is there you you said you.
23:30.94
Travis Boyco
Yeah, absolutely that’d be fantastic. Definitely.
23:40.70
Preston
Weren’t quite sure what what? a safety net looks like or something like that are there specific questions. You’d have about that.
23:42.40
Travis Boyco
Yeah, yeah, exactly I mean maybe maybe it is too simple or rudimentary but like just just the idea of is it is it as simple as is your safety net large enough to sustain you for X number of months. Is it. Is it aligning to kind of maybe your current salary and seeing if you could match that or is there some sort of magic formula that that is maybe a percentage of of what you’re currently earning. But maybe that’s just something that depends on like your your level of comfortability. Um, or. To depends person to person.
24:20.70
Preston
Yeah, yeah, these are great questions. It definitely depends person to person right? because if I was talking to someone who had four kids and a mortgage I didn’t ask, you’ve had a mortgage but ah, you know as opposed to like someone without a larger family or or whatever like that. It definitely looks a lot different right? so. Let me walk you through kind of how mind looked so what? what? I I’m not saying I did this right? I’m saying I sort of had an epiphany after the moment after the fact so I lost I told you before I lost my job. Um, and and I was when I lost my job so they they pulled us together in a team meeting in the morning. And we typically like we had this team meeting every day but we show up that day and we realize half the company’s not there and it was the half that was staying at the company and they had called in everyone who they were letting go ah to come in at the regular time and hadn’t told us so they didn’t really call us in they just we all just came to work and they told everyone else who they weren’t letting go to come in 2 hours late and so they pull us in. We’re all in this meeting. We realize half the company’s not there and the Ceo gets up and he’s sort of he’s sort of somber and I start to realize what’s going on. Um, after after I got let go. So this was early morning this was like maybe 8 or 9 in the morning instead of driving home I actually drove to the local library. And I pulled out my laptop and I started working because I had this side hustle that was now my business. My full-time business. Um, and I was like I’m determined to figure this out. So I started crunching some numbers I ended up selling like I think like $2000 worth of business that afternoon because I was just like I have to prove that I can make some money.
25:51.21
Preston
Because my goal was to go home and convince my wife that this was really a good idea. We had talked about it before we had both been hesitant but I was like I got I just I have to try this. This is the time this is the moment I can get into the job if it doesn’t work but I have to try it out. So so crunched all the numbers I built this little spreadsheet that had like all of our savings in it. And then I started to calculate out um like about how much we spend a month on just regular stuff like if we just maintained our current lifestyle with our mortgage and our groceries and our kids and whatever then how much do we spend every month right? So I tally all that up and then I looked at how much money we had. Ah, in savings between between money from the side hustle that I kept obviously in a separate separate account and our own savings and then I calculated it out and it was something like we had ah what I called a runway or a cushion of like eighteen months at our current lifestyle so I was like look let’s try this for six months if it doesn’t work. We still have a year left to find a job and I know I can find a job so that’s what a safety net looked like to me. Um, what I didn’t realize like I wished I had crunched those numbers way way before then to know oh if I ever do choose choose to leave and I want to take this full time. This is totally doable. You know, but it was it was nevertheless like really comforting in the moment to say oh we’ve got eighteen months of current lifestyle and if we really care a lot about making this work. We could even peel it back and you know bring back our expenses. Maybe we could last two full years or something so to me that’s what a safety net looks like is like saying.
27:26.83
Preston
And my current lifestyle I don’t want to change anything how long can I survive before before I’m in big trouble right? and um and that would be like taking into account like new clients that you can get with all the new free time that you’re going to have and things like that. But that’s kind of how I look at at that safety net. And and everyone’s comfortable with a different number if clay were here. He’d say he only needs like 3 to six month safety net to feel comfortable I like a good year right? Um, but everyone’s different and everyone’s going to have a different number in their head. So I can’t necessarily tell you what the magic formula is but that’s kind of how it worked for me.
27:57.68
Travis Boyco
Yeah, know that that’s that’s really interesting and I guess I have 2 questions so my my first question is did you find when you when you kind of created that safety unit and as you were kind of progressing through that that timeline whether it is the first month or halfway through that six month phase did you find that you were having to to kind of. Sacrifice any certain types of things in in your day-to-day. Did you find that because you had all of this this free time. You’re just like well I can I can make that back kind of no problem. It’s it’s just something that’s coming naturally now.
28:32.15
Preston
Yeah, there was there was maybe a little bit of both. Um I’m naturally a pretty frugal person but um, but we we do live nicely like we um, we like to spend money on things that we enjoy and and so you know I would say. I would say in the beginning in that sort of first six month period I think it was more of a subconscious thing like I’m not I’m not sure I sat down and said like this month I’m not going to do da-da-dadada I think it was more like um, you know maybe I’ll choose this cheaper option of this thing or maybe I’ll skip. This thing for today or or whatever and it was just sort of more of a frugal thing. But again I’ve always been frugal so it’s hard to identify if there was a big change there. Um I would say mostly things didn’t change for us. But I think I think that’s one hundred percent up to you right? you can say sacrificing.
29:26.44
Preston
This and this sacrificing my daily coffee is completely worth it to me for six months to make sure that my business can take off and and sustain me long term you know so I think those are just maybe all personal questions. Um about your own lifestyle.
29:37.41
Travis Boyco
Yeah, yeah, absolutely And and I think yeah, it’s It’s just an interesting concept because I think I’m I’m sure I’m definitely not alone in in the feeling. It’s it’s knowing when when that thing should happen when it should when it should go over and and when you’re comfortable making that that leap.
29:53.56
Preston
Um, yeah.
29:57.90
Travis Boyco
Um, my my second question is in your personal opinion and then this might be a harder question to to answer just because you kind of went one way. But if if things kind of were if things continued on your previous with your previous role and and you kind of continued would you have still maybe taken that leap would that have been something that that happened anyways. Or. Do you think that that was kind of like that point that it just it. It was there for you in that in that moment.
30:24.87
Preston
Yeah, you know I um I say this so I’m working in my office right now and my my wife can probably hear me talking so so but but I think this is fair to say and I think she would agree with me I think I ah. I would have been much more willing to take the leap at some point than maybe she would have been. Um I I do think in the moment we both needed the push. Um, but I think I would have been maybe more willing earlier on to just say like I bet I can make this work I’ve got I’ve got eighteen months of runway. I bet I can make this work and just had gone for it particularly because unlike you I was unhappy at my job. Um I had left a job that I really loved for a different job that paid much better, but that I ended up I thought I was going to like and I just ended up really disliking and so. And so it’s you know it’s hard to answer in hindsight right? hindsight’s twenty twenty I I um I wish I had sooner I wish I hadn’t waited until I was pushed but I recognize that I kind of needed that and particularly as a couple we needed that um that little push to just say like yeah, give give this a shot. Um.
31:36.58
Preston
Because like I said like I hadn’t even worked out what my safety net looked like I just knew that we had like money in the business and money and savings and I had never sat down and done the math if if maybe I had done that I’d have been like we really should try this. Um, you know? Yeah yeah, and and when it happened I mean I.
31:46.55
Travis Boyco
This had happened long ago.
31:53.65
Preston
Really wish I had forever ago done it and I don’t know if the business was always in a place where obviously it wasn’t always in a place where we could have just done it but probably the last three ish years of the side hustle. Um I could have easily done it and made it work. So.
32:05.38
Travis Boyco
Now that that that is super interesting and I and I think that that financial aspect of of everything is is super crucial and and maybe that’s something I need to wrap my head around a little bit more as well actually crunching those numbers and doing that. I Think this is kind of a good segue into maybe some of the other questions that I I was having especially around that kind of financial management. Um, just with with that conversation I think it’s It’s probably a bit obvious that crunching those numbers is not something that I’ve really done and it’s not something that I’m.
32:30.48
Preston
Um.
32:39.86
Travis Boyco
Really fully cognizant of in the background. Um I I guess my my my my question is how how would you kind of how would you work with with someone or how would you? How would you kind of focus on. Um. Working on that financial management or taking someone who’s maybe not quite financially literate and and bringing them to a point where they feel a little bit more comfortable with the financials to even really understand what those next steps are to run this business because. Like for myself I like I said I I do my 9 to 5 stuff I don’t really have to worry about the same kind of financials situation. It’s it’s more of like project to project or things that I’m working on with my company but all those things in the backend are just kind of a complete unknown.
33:21.31
Preston
Ah.
33:30.20
Preston
I see so so you’re saying like because at your job just tell me if I’m understanding this right because at your job. You don’t do a lot of the financial or administrative stuff. You’re you’re kind of going like I I wouldn’t really know how to handle that ah in my own business.
33:34.73
Travis Boyco
Um, yeah.
33:43.83
Travis Boyco
Exactly it’s.
33:46.90
Preston
You know you’re you’re great at creative work. You’re great at brainstorming and marketing and being successful in generating business for your boss, but it’s like once you once you have to do all that and then also balance your own books and determine your own profit margin and stuff like that is that kind of what I’m hearing.
34:00.80
Travis Boyco
Yeah, exactly it’s it’s I’m doing everything on the day-to-day just trying to get the the actual job done. But I know full Well that that’s not all that sustains a proper business right? there There are so many other facets that we need to be aware of and I think myself as a creative I’m.
34:13.33
Preston
Um, yeah.
34:20.47
Travis Boyco
But wholly focused on the creative aspect and not very much focused on on old those other aspects and that’s something that I think I need to develop and really really grow into.
34:30.15
Preston
Yeah, okay, yeah, for sure I love this question. Um I think I think it’s important to note that like some people come by this naturally I tend to be naturally passionate about what it takes to run a business. Which maybe makes me although I do have creative skills to do some of the things you do although looking at your website I’m not as good as you are, but but but I also have so so like I’m naturally passionate about the creative stuff. Um, but I’m also naturally passionate about like the problem solving and business growing stuff. And so I think it’s important to point out that that’s you know, just like any passion you have you may or may not have that and I’m talking to you Travis but I’m also talking to listeners like it might be something that you kind of force yourself to do because it has to be done. Um, and that’s that’s okay and as your business grows. You can also start to outsource that to other people you could potentially hire someone who basically runs the business. Manages the money manages you know profit margin all all these like Mba words manages all that stuff while you are sort of the creative director or creative person behind all the work. So. There’s definitely options for that. That’s maybe further down the road. Obviously if you want to continue on your own which I think makes complete sense for the stage that you’re at. I would recommend a book called the personal Mba and um, it’s not the most dry business book. You can find but it you know it’s it’s going to be a little bit in the weeds but it’ll it’ll walk you through like the basics of business. So instead of getting a business degree and Mba.
35:59.43
Preston
Ah, that’ll take you 2 to 4 years at a University you read this book and you kind of it’s kind of the cliff notes of of getting a degree in business and it just walks you through like here’s what profit margin looks like here’s how to measure your profit margin here’s how to increase your profit margin and it kind of just walks you through like what those steps might look like um. You could Also you know you could also depending on I don’t know how big is the company that you work for.
36:22.31
Travis Boyco
Ah, it’s we have like I think right now is almost 11000 people globally yeah, pretty large.
36:28.90
Preston
Whoa. Okay, so huge. So I was going to stay if it was sort of a smaller company. Yeah I was going to say you could like shadow or or like tap into I learned a ton from my bosses about how they ran their business units or are the business as a whole I reported directly to the Ceo at the job. Where I ended up getting laid off and so I got to see him day to day running the business. Um, there’s also you know there’s tons of business podcasts that’ll sort of walk you through the the business side of of a creative business. Obviously this show if you could. Dig into the archives. We’ve got a lot on on just like running and growing the business aside from the creative work I particularly really like the earliest episodes of a show called the fizzle show. Um, they helped me understand the ins and outs of creative business early on in my business. And um, there’s I mean there’s lots out there right? but um but I would say if it doesn’t come to you naturally which maybe it sounds like it doesn’t to just be passionate about how business works. You’re probably going to have to make ah a concerted intentional effort about studying it on a regular basis like maybe you take. 25 minutes of your side hustle time every day or every other day and you read some of these books or listen to some of these podcasts or maybe instead of listening to a design a graphic design podcast you listen to a couple more business podcasts or whatever. But I think over time it kind of you accumulate that knowledge and experience and then you just.
37:54.84
Preston
Kind of have to start trying it and and seeing what works in your business and what your style is and how that all works I don’t know is that is that helpful.
38:02.52
Travis Boyco
Yeah, no, that’s that’s definitely helpful and I kind of I think you hit the nail in the head I wouldn’t say these things really come Naturally I think um in my past it’s It’s really about trying to figure out like the deliverable The the final product. The the thing that that solves the the immediate issue.
38:08.47
Preston
Yeah.
38:14.41
Preston
Yeah, for sure.
38:19.70
Travis Boyco
And that’s kind of where I’ve been focused on and I mean and to be completely honest in in the past I Never even really considered even running my own business my own free. That’s business doing my thing on the side. It’s It’s always kind of started as I like to do creative work I like to help people with their creative challenges. Um, if if I can make some money off of it as Well. Hey yeah that that sounds Fantastic. Um, but those those areas are are big question marks but those are fantastic resources and I definitely should check them out.
38:48.90
Preston
Yeah I particularly like I said about that fizzle show like like I said maybe the first 2 to 300 episodes um are really really fantastic. There’s a guy on there his name’s Chase Reeves and he talks about this thing called the worker bee and. What does he call it like the the I can’t remember it’s like the Ceo and the worker Bee or something and and sometimes you have to make decisions because you’re the Ceo of your company and sometimes you have to make decisions because you’re you’re the worker and but but more often the Ceo in a business makes the decisions right? so. So you might like ah um, pull off your creative hat for a moment put on your business hat and you might say I have to charge more for this work that I do or it’s just not worth the time that I’m putting into it. And then you put on your creative hat and you go oh. But if I just could tweak this just a little bit more right because we all do that if I could just do a little bit more a little bit more and pretty soon your project’s not profitable and so you have to almost like have a split personality where where.
39:44.22
Travis Boyco
Exactly.
39:55.74
Preston
On the 1 hand you’re a Ceo and you say we can’t spend more than 10 hours on this project. We just can’t and then on the other hand you know the creative says. Okay I’ll stay within those bounds I’ll be as creative and as talented as I can within those limits that you’ve set me just like you would at a job right? But now you’re sort of adopting both of those roles.
40:10.17
Travis Boyco
Yeah, that’s really interesting and and I think that’s a really good way to put it and I would definitely relate to that on the day-to-day. It’s like I want to I want to make sure that this is perfect I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist make sure it’s It’s ready to go and it’s exactly to the vision that I have but also the vision that they have but at the same time. Yeah, you have to balance. What’s what’s actually.
40:21.79
Preston
Yep.
40:30.11
Travis Boyco
Feasible and and profitable like you said I think one of the one of the things that I learned from your ah previous episode of of the podcast was like the idea of just recurring revenue and and having things set up in a way that that is that it’s profitable but it you can package it and in ways that you can that.
40:31.70
Preston
Yeah, yeah.
40:41.78
Preston
Um.
40:47.69
Travis Boyco
You’re kind of constraining yourself in a certain way, but it’s logical. It’s it’s in a way that makes sense for you as the producer and the client as the consumer so it kind of works on both where I find my my natural go to is just like yeah just focus on the the creative output and and that’s great.
41:03.86
Preston
yeah yeah yeah I think I think as you sort of train yourself to put on the Ceo hat versus the creative hat. Um, you’ll start to find like there’s obviously going to be some dissonance there but but I think. I think you’ll start to find like oh I can work within these boundaries that I’m setting for myself. You’re obviously a disciplined person because I think it takes a disciplined person to have a successful side hustle as I mentioned at the top of the show and so you obviously have the discipline to say no I already decided before I got into the actual like pixels of this project. That I can’t spend more than 10 hours or I can’t you know I have to deliver it by Friday or or whatever, whatever, um, and then you can say I will do the absolute best most creative work I can but within those bounds and then I think I think you know. That that can really lead to a lot of satisfaction just like it does at your day job where it’s like I did the best the absolute best that I could within the bounds that my boss set for me but but your boss or or the Ceo or whoever is always setting those bounds because they recognize. That it’s not about creative perfection. It’s about profitability business is not about um, like delivering the most beautiful thing all the time. it’s sometimes about that but it’s it’s always about staying in business which means making a profit right.
42:28.00
Travis Boyco
Yeah, that that is really interesting I think in in like my my day job I think that is super super prevalent and and then it makes sense like I’m not going to I’m not going to waste time because like they they want to make sure that we can get the the projects done where we’re Efficient. We’re not. Over working on things. We’re not spending time where they it doesn’t need to be so that makes total sense. But for some reason there’s just a bit of dissonance between my my day-to-day and like the freelance. So yeah, absolutely.
42:53.51
Preston
Yeah, well then you know part part of the joy of working for yourself is that you can give yourself a little more wiggle room on that like you want to be able to work on projects that you enjoy you want to be able to put your best work into it so you do have to find the right balance right? but but at some point if it’s hurting your profitability then your Ceo self has to say guys. We can’t take so long on these projects and you have to kind of respect that um, but but I think it seems to me that you’re the kind of person that could pull that off.
43:20.32
Travis Boyco
Yeah I definitely think so I think it’s it’s really a mindset mindset shift and making sure that that I am paying attention to it. It’s kind of always front of mind and and like you said it’s it’s a fifty fifty kind of effort as opposed to just. Focusing on 1 thing and and kind of coming back to the other piece. So yeah I definitely think that’s feasible.
43:38.90
Preston
Yeah, cool. Well I think we’re coming up on the tail end of the episode here. Is there anything else Travis that’s really been. You’re really burning to talk about or or should we wrap it up here.
43:50.50
Travis Boyco
I mean the only other thing and and this can be ah shorter as long as you want to answer but um, based based off of the scale that that you provided the kind of like the one is the freelancer. the the 10 is the founder I mean I put myself as a four would you.
43:57.72
Preston
Yeah, yeah.
44:05.43
Travis Boyco
Agree to that like would would you say that that kind of fits within your scale or is there is there certain kind of Milestones or mile markers that you attribute to maybe the scale that you you created.
44:17.21
Preston
That’s such a great question if you if you listen back on episodes and listeners who are listening now you’ll notice that we don’t often comment on people’s ah, sort of opening number where they say they currently are and we have found because as we’ve discussed privately each guest. It’s like oh everyone interprets that kind of differently right. Um, and and and even the top number like we’ll say well what does an 8 look like to you. So then we can have a meaningful conversation around it. Um, because an 8 to you might look completely different. You know we’ve had guests who say they want to be at an 8 and that means they want to have 30 employees working running the business full-time like that’s not anything like your 8 right? so. So I don’t know that there’s necessarily markers when we envisioned the the scale I will tell you I sort of picture. So a 1 is like a freelancer or a side hustler. Um, no employees. no real processes no predictable revenue so no like like lead generation processes. No recurring revenue nothing really predictable very feast famine. Um, very just like I’m not sure where the next check’s going to come from I don’t know if I can do this long term those kinds of thoughts that was like a 1 um, and actually I sort of spun that negative I think there’s actually plenty of people who are doing a 1 successfully but but it’s kind of the idea of of like um, really it boils down to like if I walked away from the business if I knock on wood got hit by a bus. Ah.
45:42.64
Preston
Could the business keep rolling while I’m recovering in the hospital or could I take a month long vacation right? And and most people at a one couldn’t um I would say most people at a 2 3 4 probably couldn’t you get up into the the higher numbers the 5 6 7 8 to me that’s when like if you want to leave for a week your team can handle things or your processes handle things or your clients are okay with it or whatever like you, you’ve kind of built your business is less you and more its own entity the higher up that you get on that that scale.
46:17.13
Travis Boyco
Yeah, that that makes sense of sense and and I totally agree I Guess it is super relevant dependent on I kind of I guess you’re own business and where you’re at so just hearing you kind of discuss that helps me kind of put myself into into my own shoes and really understand Well yeah, like my for can be very different than someone else’s for so.
46:34.40
Preston
Yeah, yeah, yeah, do you do you feel like after I after I said that do you feel like you’d still put yourself at the same place and the same place that you’d want to be or or would something change I’m curious.
46:36.63
Travis Boyco
No appreciate that. Definitely it it.
46:44.41
Travis Boyco
Yeah, definitely I think I would base off of based off of what you’re what you’re explaining and and just our our conversation. Overall I think it does make make a lot of sense like I I could take some time off and I think I would probably be okay I have some clients that that are a bit repeat and and. Would understand taking that time off. So I definitely get that. But then again like you said my my 8 is not necessarily just a full look I’m I’m ready to go I have plenty people to work with that is my vision. My eight’s more of like like we said it’s just more comfortable and and being more self-sufficient. So I can definitely see. Yeah.
47:04.54
Preston
Um, ah my.
47:16.22
Preston
Yeah, yeah, cool all right? Well Travis it’s been a pleasure chatting with you today I really have enjoyed learning more about your business and hopefully some of the stuff we’ve chatted about will help you moving forward. You want to remind people where they can find you if they end up wanting to work with you or just want to check out some New York
47:33.43
Travis Boyco
Yeah, absolutely so you can just head over to my website like we said at the beginning it’s Travis Boyco last name is B O Y C O Dot Com feel free to check that out. You can also reach out on Linkedin as well. So yeah.
47:49.29
Preston
Excellent I’m definitely going to connect with you on Linkedin Travis thank you so much for taking the time to join ah join me on the show today. Really appreciate it all right? take care.
47:54.70
Travis Boyco
Thank you Really appreciate it as well.
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